Hey, credit Heroes. Today we are talking with Vance Dodson, who has the most unique business I have ever heard of in credit repair. He's not an attorney yet. He makes a living suing debt collectors, banks, and credit bureaus. And today is gonna show you exactly how he does this. So you better stick around. My name is Daniel Rosen and welcome Tore Repair Business Secrets. A few weeks ago I was at this huge marketing event called Funnel Hacking Live. It's, it's the event put on by Russell Brunson and ClickFunnels and really everything we know about marketing that we've used to grow credit repair cloud, we've learned from them. And at the event there were so many credit heroes, I couldn't believe it. That's when I met Vance Dodson, who has the most unique business I have ever heard of On his site. It says, I help people sue debt collectors, banks, and consumer reporting agencies for money.
And when scheduling this interview he wrote, I specialize in breaking the credit reports down scientifically to make money. So if you have a credit repair business, you need to hear this. If you are being hounded by debt collectors, you need to hear this. So grab a pen and paper cuz you're gonna wanna take notes. But first little disclaimer, Vance has a lot of knowledge to share, but I have to remind you that we are not attorneys, so do not take any of this as legal advice. Federal law is different than state law and every state is different. So for legal advice, consult with an attorney. And there I said it, that's the disclaimer. So Credit Heroes, buckle up. This is gonna be a good one. Please welcome to the podcast, Vance Dotson. Hey Vance, welcome.
Thank you. And um, you know, you and a credit repair cloud family. This. Thank
You. Well, thank you for being here. I was so excited to have you on and you started telling me about what you did and I just knew you had to be on. And you're in Oklahoma City, right?
And you're known as the credit doctor of Oklahoma City?
Yes. Vance the credit doctor. Yes.
I love that. So I wanna know everything, but first can you tell me what was your life like before credit repair and what led you to this?
So right outta high school, I worked on drilling rigs for a long time. I guess the side hustle of credit repair turned into my primary business. My uncle was the head accounting at this local credit union and the loan officer took a liking into me because of my uncle. She offered me a loan and I got denied for the loan because of the medical bills. And then she taught me how to build my FICO score. And then from there it is Ben off to the races. And this was back in 2004.
So that's how you got into it. You learned that your credit was messed up and it was because of medical bills?
Yes. Wow. What did you learn to fix it up at that point,
Like I said, I was working on drilling rig, so doing a seven day zone and seven days off. So I would deposit checks within the credit union. You know, a second time she said, I'm going to recreate the disputes and we are gonna send them. We got into her car, she sent them, we went to lunch, we talked about it. And then we went over strategies to build my FICO score. And I'm just curious ever since, so
Wow. So that, that was really nice of her to go that extra mile for you.
Yeah, because I see the same thing in consumers when they come to me for help. And it's just like, if you don't do it for 'em, they're not gonna do it. So you have to keep, you have to keep doing it. You have to stay on top of the items that's on your report.
Sure. So what gave you the idea that you could turn this into a business and then how did you start
It? You know, this is probably around when an internet was first kicking up on the phones, you know, so it was information, but it wasn't that much information around. I always had friends that was lawyers, you know, you can just call lawyers, they're gonna stickle out information, but at this time I'm not knowing how valuable the information was. And so I led onto pacer. So when I led onto pacer, I was just blown away. PACER is a acronym, public Access for Court Electronic Records. That's where all of the federal lawsuits is housed. You can go to Virginia, California, Oklahoma, and you can just look up the lawsuits. And so when I looked up the Fair Credit Reporting Act on lawsuits and the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, it was just information. And so I took that information, started studying it, and then I bumped to a guy named Leonard Bennett. Aw man. When I discovered his cases hands down, it changed my life. It changed everything about me, you know, because I was looking at his cases and he got a lot of case law within America on a fair credit reporting Acton.
Like I said, I was working on drilling rigs, you know, in back of my head, I didn't know how far that this was gonna go. So one day I'm driving to the drilling rig, I'm talking on the phone speaker phone and I'm eating Lone John Silver's fish and I'm driving with my knee, with my leg and I wrecked, flew out the, the front of the, of the car. And so from that, you know, they called the ambulance, they called the police. So they took me to the hospital and guess what came a medical bill.
So I didn't pay the medical bill, so they sent it to a debt collector and the debt collector called me. And so the first tip I want to give people is when they're dealing with debt collector calls is to pull out a recorder. So say for example, people have phones, people have iPads or laptops and them devices can record. And so just hit record and then you can tell the debt collector different scenarios. So I'm gonna give one scenario. So right now I'm working, so I will answer the phone and say, you know, hey, I'm at work right now and it's not a good time to talk. And so you kind of just gradually say, Hey, you know, my break is almost up or you know, I have to go right now. Don't answer the question on when when can we call back? Don't never answer that question. So say for an example, if you are meditating and they in the debt collector calls you, you just say, Hey, you know, I'm meditating right now, it's not a good time to talk. And so from there you put the debt collector on notice that it's an inconvenience to you. And so that second time that they call, that's a violation of the FD cpa, but you have to state what you're doing. So you know, I'm on Daniel's podcast right now, it's not a good time to talk. And that let that be that
And then that recording can be used in the suit?
Yeah, yeah, because okay, so it depends on if it's a one party consent state, which is Oklahoma. It depends on if it's a two party consent state, which is California. So, but consumers have to understand that debt collectors always say this is an attempt to collect the debt. You know, any information may be used for that purpose. You know, all phone calls may be monitored and recorded. Once you hear that segment right there, that gives you, no matter if you're in a two party, one party, the consent to record,
I never knew that. So that gives you all the evidence you need in that particular case. And how big can these settlements be?
So my friend, that collector was calling him and the ironic thing was the debt was actually his girlfriends, but they thought it was his cause he answered the phone. And so we got some things that they should not said either in private or public. I took it to a friend that was a lawyer of mine and his case settled for 1.5 million.
F d CPA wise, that case is still the most amount that anybody in America has ever got from an FD CPA case.
Was that a case where the recording helped?
Tremendously. Tremendously. Wow. That was the key because when you telling something, you know, people look at the story and say, uh, we kind of don't believe, but when you have the ability to just press play, it opens up the doors. And so that's what happened.
How did this turn into a business?
It goes back to, you know, me breaking it down scientifically. Say for example, you got black, you got white, you got up, you got down. So it's opposition to everything. Once I understood from looking at the Fair Isaac website and information on there, I just said, man, this is scientific. So I did the research on the two guys who founded Fair Isaac, it popped in my head and what they was doing, or what they are still doing is using people's paths to predict their future using a, a mathematic algorithm.
Right. Amazing. Can you tell us about some other cases?
I was a part of a case that was 1.5 million with experience. So what Experian was doing is sort of like what TransUnion is doing today. So the consumer would dispute, or the credit repair company would dispute, and then you would get something in a mail that's saying, Hey, we, we got a, uh, a suspicious request. Or what TransUnion is doing is like, Hey, we got something from a credit repair company or whatever the case might be,
Yeah, that's, that's a violation of the Fair Credit Reporting
Act. And by the way, Congress is going after them now for this, for these violations. I did podcast on it just this week.
Anyone can do something on someone's behalf if they have the permission too. And that's the case with credit repair. And so doing credit repair is not illegal, but these companies like the CRAs, they look down on credit repair companies. And so I spend a lot of my time consulting and doing lawsuits around America.
Wow, fascinating. How do people learn about you?
Social media, um, Facebook, Instagram, all of the social media outlets,
And then you look at their case and see the, the merit of it and and yeah. And and you help them to sue.
Yes. Um, yeah, so I have a principle of mine. If somebody is sending a dispute, they have a problem. Nine times outta 10 you have a case. The violation typically is just right in people's face. They just don't know how to read the information and pursue the violation of federal court or state court or other avenues like arbitration.
Sure. I'm sure it must be overwhelming and confusing so you can step in and help them. When we met in Florida that you are also buying people's debt. Is that correct? Did I get that right?
Yes. So the unique thing about that is it's what the debt collectors do in the reverse. Okay. So let's say me slash Daniel, right? So my mother, my daddy, I couldn't have been here if it wasn't for them two coming together. So that's the same thing with your credit card. The credit card account agreement wouldn't be in existence if you didn't apply for it and accept the offer. What I'm saying is the consumer has just as much rights as, let's just say for an example, Citibank. Okay? So the consumer doesn't pay Citibank and the consumer, we're just gonna say Midland for an example, sells the rights to Midland. So what I do and what I have done was go to the consumer and say, Hey, can I buy your debt and let me take ownership. It's nothing different, you know, and so what I've, I've done that for several years now and pursue the debt collector.
When the violations, uh, presents itself, a lot of my business is dealing with a section in the uh, fair Debt Collection Practices Act is E eight. The consumer calls the debt collector and say for an example, let's say if we're dealing with a medical bill, uh, the consumer will say, you know, Hey, I thought my insurance paid this medical bill off. Debt collector will communicate slash report and they won't inform the consumer reporting agencies that the consumer is disputed. And so that's a violation of section E eight. They always raised an argument and say, this person did not say the word dispute. Well the courts and the appeals courts has come and say, you don't have to say dispute in order for a consumer to dispute a good example. If someone takes your seat and you say, Hey man, you took my seat. And you say, no, I didn't take your seat, that's a discrepancy.
That's what a lot of consumers around the nation is getting ignored. So I look at a lot of disputes, a lot of people complaining and the consumer reporting agencies don't take 'em very serious. And so we pursue them under the Fair Credit Reporting Act. So you have section EB of the Fair Credit Reporting Act section EB is accuracy of of the reports. So it's before the consumer disputes. So section EB kicks in before the
consumer disputes and then when they receive the dispute, it's called a reinvestigation. So them are the procedures that they have to follow. But this is the thing, once the consumer disputes and send that notification, the consumer reporting agencies have to convey that dispute over to the fs. That's never done. That's never done. So how they, you know, communicate the disputes is electronically. But this is the thing. So the Fair Credit Reporting Act says when a consumer sends the disputes, they have to convey over the information to the furniture and when the furniture responds to the dispute, they have to look at the information and they have to make a decision based off the information that is never done.
So a lot of my cases is dealing with that section of the Fair Credit Reporting Act while dealing with the furnitures. I had the pleasure of meeting Ms. Terry Hinkel and so she took, uh, Midland credit to court and she's an older lady. The case came out of the 11th circuit and she took Midland to federal court. She won on the appeals. That decision how Midling was trying to manipulate the situation. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, it's awesome. So it's um, Hinkel versus Midland credit management, the credit repair family should study that case.
What were they doing that turned out so awesome? Are they doing something terrible, right? Yeah,
Yeah. Yes. Oh, not awesome. Terrible. There is a legal difference between verification and validation, but the thing about it is, it's called account level documentation. Account level documentation wasn't provided and it is not provided with a lot of consumer disputes. That was the issue. So once the consumer gets the disputing and asking for that account level documentation because there's a standard accuracy, completeness, and verification, what happened was she took him up on it and she won. It's an awesome decision.
Wow. That is great. Hey, for anyone uh, listening who doesn't know, can you tell us what the differences are between verification and validation?
Say if you're working at a store Footlocker and you call on the phone and you say, Hey, do you have a size 10? When you say yes, that's validation. If you say, Hey, do you have a size 10 in X? And you say, yes, okay, well send me a picture. That's verification. One is just saying, Hey, you know, yeah, we have it. Goodbye. And you say one, say, Hey, yeah, we have it. Send me proof. Got it. So that's the difference.
Investigation and like I said before, reinvestigation, it's two different things, but just the term investigation means to have a searching inquiry. Like, you know, when the police come and they're looking for something, they're flipping over things, have a searching inquiry. But this is the key. A reinvestigation is a higher standard because keep in mind they started with maximum possible accuracy in section eb. So when a consumer goes to dispute, there is no issue. I've been able to rack up some nice settlements dealing with these type of lawsuits on
The investigations and rein investigations. The bureau's not really investigating anything, are they? No, they're passing it all onto the fs. Right?
That was the significance of Ms. Henkels case because they're not doing what they're supposed to do under the ffc. And so for the listeners, if you wanna do some research, Stevenson versus TRW and Richardson versus Equifax and Cushman versus TransUnion, them are the cases that says what you was alluding to, how they're doing their standard procedure isn't the law. Once they scan that information and then the computer re and then they're doing whatever their investigation is. Sure. They said that's not the law, how they're doing it, that's not the law. So that's three good cases. That's still good case law as of now. Yeah.
It's so weird that they ask the f it's like asking, uh, it's like the police asking the criminal to investigate themselves.
They're the ones breaking the law and they're investigating themselves.
I, I see nothing wrong here. Let me go off
<laugh>. It's nutty. Your business you've now had for close to 10 years then? Well,
Oh, okay. Longer than 10 years.
Yeah. So I stepped into the litigation world in 2008.
Okay, got it. How has this changed your life since your times on the oil rigs?
Well, it is really changed my life because it just, just helping out consumers every day. So say for an example, a lot of debt collectors send letters to people. So say for an example, you put the date on top, you just get a regular piece of, you know, paper, you put the date on top, you address it to the debt collector, whoever it is, your handwriting this, your handwriting this, okay, so you gonna address it to the debt collector, then you're gonna put the account number and then you're gonna put the amount of the debt and then you, you say some magic words, I refuse to pay the debt. And then you sign your name below and then you take a picture. So you always have proof. So you take a picture of the letter and then you send that letter off certified to the debt collector. Now Daniel, I'm telling you, it's a lot of cases in America like that.
What happens after you send that in,
They're supposed to stop, but they don't. And let me tell you the reason why they don't, you know, a lot of big companies use automation and they use that computer system to scan in, you know, types of letters, communication, right? So what happens is the system doesn't pick it up, they just think it's a dispute. And so it spits out the verification here is validation stuff, but that's not the FD cpa. The FD CPA says you gotta stop. And so that becomes a lawsuit under the FD cpa.
Wow, that is genius. I've never heard of any of these things. <laugh> and I've been in this business for a long time.
A lot of consumers come to me after they dispute because this is something that people can do themselves. So people come to me after they dispute the consumer reporting agencies in these fs. They kinda hold up the consumer when a consumer is buying a house because the consumer wants to buy a car, the consumer wants to buy a house. For an example, if a mortgage broker tell you, Hey, we can't give you no loan because all of these dispute things is right here. So what I do is I send a letter to TransUnion, Equifax and Experian and the debt collector and say, Hey, I'm in a process of getting a mortgage and I need this off of my report. Take the dispute notations off my report. They don't do it. That's a violation under the FD CPA and also the ffc. So I've been very successful in federal court, also state court in arbitration and when it claims like that,
Wow. How many claims do you think you filed like that
On Instagram? Vance Dotson. So you go to the page and then you go far, right? You'll see what I'm tagged in them. Them are all cases that I, when I hooked up with, uh, Ms. Tiffany Hill, them are lawsuits that we have won for consumers around the United States. So, um, she's, she's licensed in Texas and she's licensed in Oklahoma City or Oklahoma. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, to answer your question, I've done hundreds, hundreds, hundreds, hundreds.
I'm not making any income disclaimers, but I can tell you your active credit repair cloud members can at least 25 x their income on a accident if they're following the steps that I tell them to follow. Because this is the thing, you know, people often file bankruptcy around America. I'm not saying the bankruptcy is the problem itself. When we sue the consumer reporting agencies, they know that a consumer has filed chapter 13 or seven or whatever, but they don't correct the credit card information. Like, so they don't correct the balance even though, you know, bankruptcies is a long drawn out process. They don't correct the balance. So that's one. Then two, they'll leave it in a charge off status. They don't put it on discharge and bankruptcy. And so we go after the consumer reporting agencies for that. Daniel, the credit report is so many violations.
Okay, let's back up a minute. So I've, cuz I've helped a lot of people with part of this, but not the part you're talking about. When you file a bankruptcy very often they don't wipe them to zero and they're supposed to be wiped to zero. This is what you're talking about. Yes. And when they don't wipe it to zero after the bankruptcy, that's a violation.
That's a violation under the F C R A. Yes. And
You can sue them for that.
I sued them actively for that.
You're the coolest guy on the planet <laugh>.
It's a lot of information. It's a lot of information. Um, consumers don't have and that was why I like to come onto your show, to tell the consumers, Hey, you have rights, you have options and to reach out. And so, you know, credit repair has a bad name because a lot of people get into credit repair and they don't have the education behind how it really works. The, the intentions is good, but the actions just a
lot of the times fall wayside. If the people want like just want to pick my brain and come to my mentorship, send me a message on Instagram or they can send me a message on Facebook or they can go to vance dotsons mentorship.com.
Got it, got it, got it. In fact, I've got that link right here. Vance dotson mentorship.com. Got it. Yeah. Okay. Hey, I wanna know more about your business. Do you have a team or is it just you?
Well, it's really just me, me and other lawyers Uhhuh. So I'm not like partner with an attorney, but you know, I'm not in Tennessee. Yeah. So I, I worked the case up and sent it to someone in Tennessee or I worked the case up and sent it to somebody in California. I found out, you know, going through the funnel hacking live man, that everybody had these immune, these huge teams and it was a guy, his name is Marvin Smith. And Marvin is the reason why I went to Funnel Hacking Live. And he has a humongous team and he keeps telling me, man, you need to build a team, build a team doing all that legal stuff. It's like my baby, so mm-hmm <affirmative>, it's kind of hard to just let go and trust somebody to, to do that. Have
You ever thought about going to law school? You probably don't need it, but I was just curious. <laugh>,
You'd be an amazing attorney, but you probably making way more money than any attorney I've ever met.
Yeah, I wouldn't fit in, I just wouldn't fit in.
Fascinating. Now, how did the pandemic affect your business?
It didn't. I think just looking at it now, I think it probably spiked. When economy go down, people look for more credit. I'm telling you Daniel, I've never seen a decrease in business because say for an example, we're just gonna say the bare minimum $1,000. I say, Hey, do you want a house and can I fix your credit for free? The consumer says yes. So the consumer disputes of some type of sort and there's an issue. So we're gonna just say for this example, the consumer disputes somehow some way and there's 10 discrepancies of whatever the case may be. If we take them people to court or we take 'em to state court or we take 'em to arbitration at the very minimum, that's a thousand dollars very minimum. So that's $10,000 off that one person. Wow. And so I'm able to do that pretty accurately.
Wow. Amazing. Now are you able to settle a lot of them before they get to court? Or do most go to court?
Well, you wanna go to court.
Wow. You want money, they want you to dismiss the lawsuit. Right. And so you go into a settlement and everything is swept under a rug. When you do that.
I ask because years ago we were approached, remember Keenan, we were approached by this law firm. They said, Hey, we want you to send us, have your credit repair cloud customers send people to us. We've never lost a case. And when I looked them up, it was because they always settle. Their magic number they said was around $2,500. So they always settle, but they're probably missing out on the big wins. But they're doing it the lazy way. The
Way that we're talking about is not done on by the everyday average consumer. You have millions of people. So you are filing at a high rate and you're settling at a high rate. That's a lot of money. There was a case called Ramirez case, and the Ramirez case after that case was published, it went up to the Supreme Court. It was detrimental in a way, but it is super positive for consumers. So this is the significance of that case. Once you file a Fair Credit Reporting Act, you have to have concrete damages. You believe you have violation of the law statutorily. And then the consumer report agencies would just settle 'em out. Okay. So in this particular case, they fought to the very last end, the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court said you have to have concrete damages. When that case first came out, I was mad. I'm like, come on man, are you serious? Sat down, thought about it. I said, bingo, actual damages. Since the Ramirez case, I'm not even entertaining a settlement less than $5,000. Wow. So now you take that 10 and you times about five, that's $50,000. And so we usually come a settlement number between five, 5,070 $500 per case.
That is unbelievable. Wow. So very, very cool. This business business you've
Created, you know, and I'm not just a smart guy, it's very repeatable, like you were saying with Russell Brunson. It's very repeatable. Just have to implement. You have to start. Once you understand the basic principles, you'll be very successful.
So what can people expect if they sign up for your mentorship? What's the outcome?
Dollars, <laugh> satisfied customers. I'm compensated with a little cash and the consumer buys the house or gets the credit card or gets the car that they desire and they go on and, you know, live a happily life.
Yeah. And you're really turning the tables on bad companies that do terrible things.
Yeah. I, I wish a lot of more people, a lot of more credit repair companies would buckle down and get into it because like I say, no wanna make any income disclosures, but they could 10 x their business.
Can I tell one more story?
In 2019, some information that was on my report from Dallas, Texas area, I never stayed in Dallas, Texas. I always stayed in Oklahoma City. It was some electrical bill. I sued Experian. It was only on the Experian report. And so when I sued Experian, I had to Wall Street a journal calling me and interviewing me. And I
was just like, man, this is crazy because the lady I, I, I forget now, it was like $97, you know, the lady asked me, she said, why didn't you just pay the $97 or whatever it was? And I said, and I said, mm-hmm <affirmative>, I'm gonna give you the answer. It's not my bill. Why would I pay something that's not mine? It's not mine. And so that was the Wall Street Journal that reached out. Ultimately I deposed Experian for five and a half, six hours, what I needed in 26 minutes.
This was the most important thing. So you know how I was explaining earlier how they, you know, scan the documents and things of that nature. Experian conducts their rein investigations in South America, Chile. Oh. So I'm deposing the lady here in America. And so keep in mind, she's supposed to be telling me firsthand knowledge. So I say, Hey, where's this person at? You know, they had some name like El Waldo or whatever. And I asked, so where are they at? She said, in South America. And I said, Hey, do you have a passport? And, and she kind of like chuckled, like, and I said, yeah, do you have a US passport? The lawyer objected to it. Objection. And I said, no, you can still answer. She said, no, I do not. So I said, how are you telling me about a process or what somebody has done in the South America when you don't even have the ability to leave the United States? They was just wasting time. I learned that method from looking at Leonard Bennett's pleadings.
And what was the outcome of that case?
Well, uh, Experian might be a little upset, but it was north of $300,000.
Consumers just need to reach out and ask for help.
I'm sure they're gonna be Well, I wanna switch gears for a minute. I wanna ask you a few rapid fire questions and where you answer the first thing that pops into your head. Are you up for that? All right,
Okay. What is your business Superpower.
Awesome. What is your business kryptonite, meaning the area you had to work hardest to improve?
Hmm. What does business ownership mean to you?
What drives and motivates you?
What's your definition of success?
If you could go back in time and tell yourself one piece of advice, what would that be?
Read everything you sign before you sign it.
And do you have any other advice for someone who's got a credit repair business or is just starting out with credit repair?
Yeah. Arm yourself with knowledge.
And last one, what's next for you? What's the next goal?
I wanna be the first person that's not a lawyer to do a class action lawsuit. So I'm getting that prepared now.
That is so cool. I really appreciate you being here. This was amazing. And again, folks watching, folks listening, if you wanna learn more, go to vance dotson mentorship.com. We're gonna put the link in the show notes. Uh, actually we'll probably run it, uh, down here at the bottom of the screen, vance dotson mentorship.com. And I really appreciate you being here today, Vance. I just thank you so much for your time. Thanks for having, and congratulations on all of your success
And congratulations on your success too.
Entrepreneurship is not easy at the start, is it?
Oh no. Oh no. It's very hard.
Yeah. But if you can work through the pain, all this troubles and ugliness, you can get to the other side and it's pretty sweet, isn't it?
For me? I started the hard way. Sure. But now we have, say for example, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat, and TikTok. That's the shortcut because you can reach out to someone like you or someone like me and I'm going to give you the information. So that cuts out a lot of the troubleshooting and reading on Google. And if somebody, if somebody's giving out bad advice, that cuts a lot of that stuff out. So get in contact with somebody like me. I'm gonna give you very precise and accurate information
Yeah. And really unique information. I just love that you're, you're, you're citing all these cases, like you're, you're like a Harvard Law professor. Well thank you again and everybody out there, if you enjoy this podcast, share it with someone, click below to subscribe, uh, so you don't miss any of the secrets we share each week here on the Credit Repair Business Secrets podcast. And I will see you on the next episode. And until then, be a credit hero and keep changing lives. Hey everybody, it's Daniel again. And really quick, I'd like to invite you to join what I believe is the best thing we have ever created inside the Credit Repair Cloud community. And it is a challenge that we call the Credit Hero challenge. If you're just planning out your business or you're just getting it started and you dream of having a successful business of your own so you can quit your nine to five and fire your boss and have financial freedom or so you can add another revenue stream to your existing business.
If that's your dream, you need to get into this challenge. We created this challenge to help you to create and launch your very own credit repair business to build a proper foundation for a really successful business. This challenge is going to help you to understand the strategy, the tactics, and all the things you need to be successful at credit repair. It really is the greatest thing we have ever built and it will change your life. So I recommend you do it right now. Stop everything, pause this audio, go online and go to credit hero challenge.com. That's credit hero challenge.com and join the next challenge. And there's a challenge that's starting in just a few days. So go get started right now at creditherochallenge.com.